Wendy: I am thankful for Thurman’s wisdom about deception and how to combat it. I want to believe that truth will prevail, but when AI deep fakes and conspiracy theories rule the day I am really feeling like we are buried under an avalanche of deception. When lies are told daily by those in the highest offices of our land, it is very hard to remain hopeful.
Ruth: yaaaasss 😫 It is discouraging out there. I read somewhere recently that between bots and extremists, we think things are far worse than they actually are. If we can have face-to-face conversations with people, we'll likely find a lot of common ground.
I found this chapter the hardest so far. The big question for me was "are there times when to tell the truth is to be false to the truth that is within you." Having spent time in countries where to tell the truth may have an effect on you BUT have an even greater effect on another person/group. Because of my privilege (old, white, male, Canadian) I may get booted out of a country for truth telling/not practising transparency, but my friends, the disinherited of the country, might end up jailed or worse. This is where I struggle, it is one thing to be honest as a member of the disinherited and another to be honest when you are OUTSIDE the disinherited but the consequences will fall on the disinherited to a greater extent.
There is perhaps, a parallel situation where a person uses the "cover" of the disinherited as justification to deceive. The most striking example of this is when
you deceive in the name of religion to advance "a greater good". Deliberately, defying the law of the land by smuggling in Bibles or swearing you are doing NO evangelism and then evangelizing. These are deceptions that I personally can not justify. However I know it to be a struggle (or not) for many others.
Ruth: Before I "worked out my own salvation", I was very certain about lots of things. But then life threw some curveballs and the framework of my faith couldn't stand up under that weight. I realized it wasn't all true, and I felt deceived to some degree. When I was in a more concrete, high-control religion, I knew what to say to be accepted and rewarded. I didn't know how to think for myself, or stand up for a different point of view. I think this chapter is very helpful on learning the importance of being fully sincere and honest. Because we need more honest conversations with each other, especially across ideological, social, cultural, theological, etc. boundaries. You never know who is listening in or reading along. I was that person years ago, finding my own voice and becoming more integrated and honest.
Wendy: “Sincerity in human relations is equal to, and the same as, sincerity to God.”
“we come upon the stark fact that the insistence of Jesus upon genuineness is absolute; man’s relation to man and man’s relation to God are one relation.”
When I think of my sincerity being more about my relationship with the sacred, as much as it is about my relationship with other humans, that does call forth a level of conviction to speak my truth.
“There must always be the confidence that the effect of truthfulness can be realized in the mind of the oppressor as well as the oppressed. There is no substitute for such a faith.”
“In the presence of an overwhelming sincerity on the part of the disinherited, the dominant themselves are caught with no defense, with the edge taken away from the sense of prerogative and from the status upon which the impregnability of their position rests.”
This idea that my truth might awaken the truth in those who see me as “other” makes me want to try but so often, I see people who have been taught that they are somehow superior to those they see as “other” double down on that belief when they are confronted.
The most challenging is to wrestle with the difference between the mindset/world view of the disinherited and that of the privileged, that would walk alongside. Being the "Roman citizen", when and how do we use that in addressing equity (or lack of) in our journey with the disinherited.
Wendy: “I have in my possession a copy of a letter from Mahatma Gandhi to Muriel Lester. The letter says in part: “Speak the truth, without fear and without exception, and see everyone whose work is related to your purpose. You are in God’s work, so you need not fear man’s scorn. If they listen to your requests and grant them, you will be satisfied. If they reject them, then you must make their rejection your strength.”
“The acceptance of this alternative is to be simply, directly truthful, whatever may be the cost in life, limb, or security.”
This week, I posted an article on my Substack about an experience I had in Texas that felt very scary to me. As a woman who grew up in the South, I really struggle to speak courageously about politics and theology. The one place I feel bold is when speaking as a mother. So, when my role of mother intersects with theology and politics, I am deeply conflicted. In the end, I shared the post. We shall see if it causes harm or leads to the kind of liberation that Thurman claims it can. I am not very good at turning rejection into strength!
Ruth: Good job being brave and sharing your important essay, Wendy!!! I think Thurman's call to sincerity and truthfulness is so hard because it is drilled into us what is socially acceptable, and we know there is fallout and a cost to deviating from that. But I have found that only using the socially accepted scripts does feel deceptive and untrue, coming from my lips. So I've learned to be more bold with time and practice, saying what I really think or feel (not always, but way more than I used to!). Even saying nothing in the face of something I think is wrong feels like a deception now.
Wendy: “Above all else the disinherited must not have any stake in the social order; they must be made to feel that they are alien, that it is a great boon to be allowed to remain alive, not be exterminated. This was the psychology of the Nazis; it grew out of their theory of the state and the place given the Hebrew people in their ideology. Such is also the attitude of the Ku Klux Klan toward Negroes.”
“From our analysis of the life of Jesus it seems clear that it was from within the framework of great social pressures upon him and his group that he taught and lived to the very end.”
“The experience of power has no meaning aside from the other-than-self reference which sustains it.”
“A man is a man, no more, no less. The awareness of this fact marks the supreme moment of human dignity.”
I would add the Immigrants, the Queer community, progressive Christians, and other faith traditions to that list in our current reality. The thread of “othering” as a tool for silencing or distorting the values of the “out” group really stood out to me in this section. While I could not relate to it as a racial minority, I felt it most starkly as the mother of queer children living in an ultra-conservative rural community, most devastatingly from within conservative Christian circles who would see me as “other” because I do not ascribe to their version of Christianity.
Ruth: Standout quotes for me: "if a man continues to call a good thing bad, he will eventually lose his sense of moral distinctions." p54
"The penalty of deception is to become a deception, with all sense of moral discrimination vitiated." p55
"It is true that we are often bound by a network of social relations that operate upon us without being particularly affected by us. We are all affected by forces, social and natural, that in some measure determine our behavior without our being able to bring to bear upon them our private will, however great it may be." p56-57
"A profound piece of surgery has to take place in the very psyche of the disinherited before the great claim of the religion of Jesus can be presented. The great stretches of barren places in the soul must be revitalized, brought to life, before they can be challenged." p58
"Mere preaching is not enough. What are words, however sacred and powerful, in the presence of the grim facts of the daily struggle to survive?" p59
"Unwavering sincerity says that man should always recognize the fact that he lives always in the presence of God, always under the divine scrutiny, and that there is no really significant living for a man, whatever may be his status, until he has turned and faced the divine scrutiny. Here all men stand stripped to the literal substance of themselves, without disguise, without pretension, without seeming whatsoever. No man can fool God. From him nothing is hidden." p61
"Sincerity in human relations is equal to, and the same as, sincerity to God." p62
Joyce: So I’ll share my thoughts before reading what others have said - so if I’m being redundant, my apologies 😊 …
This chapter provoked so many trains of thought. I felt in this chapter I saw a conversation on autonomy and ontology, but in this particular segment, agency.
One of the most effective ways to oppress entire people groups is by stripping them of these three - taking away their belief that they have what it takes for self determination, strip people of an identity beyond how the are relevant to the oppressor, and the belief that they have an ability or gifts to effect change for themselves and the world. When systems deprive people of this knowledge, they deny people of those things that are innately part of being human. A healthy person believes they have something to add to the world and the ability to share it.
I was particularly struck by Thurmond’s conversation regarding children and empowering them to dream and develop within this context. We can communicate with words to a person of their infinite worth, but when we communicate in every other way the opposite, that worth is not internalized and incorporated into one’s identity. Instilling the belief that someone has value is powerful - believing that you have something to contribute to society and that you belong is a critical aspect to a person’s well being and their ability to thrive. (Hello Mr. Maslow!) Thurmond’s illustration of Hitler youth was a compelling demonstration of this - and we see the same sort need being met through gangs and the sexual abuse - of girls in particular.
Working with incarcerated youth the most powerful thing I was able to do for the kids I worked with was to help them see that God created them on purpose and for a purpose - that they have value to the Kingdom. After working in ministry with seniors, I saw this same thirst. When any person is denied the belief that they are irrelevant, we shrink back, accept scraps and forfeit our ontology.
I probably digressed a little too hard from the thread. 😬 Apologies. I look forward now to seeing other’s thoughts.
Joyce: I did love this imagery. It was powerful. I think there are so many kids who never had this time of limitlessness. I find so much joy in working with teens and adults who missed this and giving them this opportunity later in life. I feel wildly in touch with God when I take a suburban mom and guide her in dreaming and embracing who it is she’s been called to be and watching her live into her gifts. It’s pure magic.
Wendy: “Youth is a time of soaring hopes, when dreams are given first wings and, as reconnoitering birds, explore unknown landscapes. Again and again, a man full of years is merely the corroboration of the dreams of his youth.” This quote stood out as confirmation of why I love youth-driven development so much.
“It ill behooves the man who is not forced to live in a ghetto to tell those who must how to transcend its limitations.” This one is at the core of the type of community-driven work I do which requires a lot of deconstruction of our inherited ways of "helping."
Anna: I appreciated that too and his point about no one really wanting the pity of their neighbor over more just and equitable functioning, which Thurman clearly isn't holding out hope for full realization of such in his timeframe. Here again, in his addressing the experience of youth, I would have loved to see what a Trauma-Informed Thurman would have written and offered from his theological insights and what we know now about how trauma impacts brain function and development!
What I found helpful, was the writing on segregation, I have often felt that this concept has been to narrowly defined, so this chapter helped me to be more curious and forthright about that. The question I find myself asking in many situations now is "What are the subtle ways that segregation (writ large) is being practised in this situation. It may be race +, but often times we stop at race or gender, and I think there are more ways segregation creeps in.
Joyce: I think this speaks to that sense of worth that is absent in so many (including me). I think when we know that we have been created as a coequal child of the Kingdom, it empowers us to do things without that fear of the perspective of others. I still struggle, but every time I would go for my interviews as part of my UMC candidacy process, I was terrified that they would reject me and think I was foolish for thinking I could ever be called. I still have rushes of anxiety as I prepare for the next level of interviews, but I have finally come to a place that I own my call - now I just hope that I’m good enough at articulating it so others can see it too.
Callie: thanks for sharing your challenge, which also challenges me. Sure, lots of things are worse than death, and death can be a relief and a blessing. But this goes deeper. I am thinking that the best parts of us die when we aren't genuine and authentic; and the worst parts of us are given more space. Maybe I can be more afraid of those outcomes than of the more temporary fears that sometimes hold me back. I also remember learning years ago that I probably can't even perceive the things that I am unwilling to accept, including direction from God.
Wendy: “Such a man recognizes that death cannot possibly be the worst thing in the world. There are some things that are worse than death. To deny one’s own integrity of personality in the presence of the human challenge is one of those things. “Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do,” says Jesus.”
I struggle with fear. Not so much for my bodily safety, but fear of making a mistake, especially when it comes to putting myself out there and being rejected. This quote is challenging me. Is not trying, not following my calling, not staying true to my own integrity in the face of challenges worse than death?
I think Thurman would say, to do so would mean I am not fully alive if I don’t. So for Thurman, yes…worse than death. He literally says, “If you cannot hear the sound of the genuine within you, you will never find whatever it is for which you are searching, and if you hear it and then do not follow it, it was better that you had never been born.” In his 1980 commencement speech at Spelman College. I need to sit with this one and let it work on me a bit.
Anna: I think in light of the reading I've done about trauma and trauma's impact on development, I very much wrestle with the words of Jesus that Thurman is citing. I think Thurman so wonderfully describes fear as a part of the landscape (smog over a city) that just becomes part of life for the disinherited. It's not merely the idea of fear that is prevelant but ample reason and lived experience which warrant the awareness or concern, especially for those Thurman describes as the disinherited. While we do have these texts of Christ's talking about not worrying... you know, for those who can only take your life (along with your peace, health, safety...) we also have Jesus having mercy on women at full volume begging for the healing of their kid, women sneaking up just to touch his garment and him refusing to move forward without acknowledging the "energy that had left him" and her faith. We have the bereaved Christ feeding thousands in the wake of his cousin's murder and pulling an all nighter walking across the sea... We have a Christ who says to be worried for nothing but in the end is "grieved, even to death" and begging his bros to keep watch with him in his anguish. There is a tension in that which feels life giving to me in reckoning my own experiences and sitting with the experiences of my neighbor.
Joyce: I think my comment further down probably would fit here in the discussion 🫤 … I was extremely impressed with a refusal to acknowledge an individual’s innate worth - and actual being - is such a powerful tool of oppression. When we accept that we are less than in a society (even if we feel it’s an injustice) and when we feel disconnected to any of the levers of power, people become so vulnerable and driven by fear. When Thurmond’s spoke about how we are physically changed by this condition- through his example of snakes in India - I immediately recognized how nearly physically impossible it was for me to look men in the eye and hold my head up - I am better than I was, but as a fear driven response, my posture and how I communicated constantly showed deference to men. I didn’t feel like I had any authority, agency, or control in the world.
Anna: That was a big takeaway for me in this chapter too, even though Thurman isn't specifically addressing it. Over and over I found myself replacing his varying uses of the disinherited/oppressed with women in reading the text. In so many representations of Christendom they don't even have the guise of someone saying they are hypothetically equal to their male counterparts and equipt to serve in like and identical roles...
Years ago I was in a Christian leadership program where the group had answered a series of questions pointing to perks and challenges of our lived experience; realities over which we ourselves would have no control. And then we lined up according to the number of perks/lack of perks and bowed that line to share a conversation partner who was at the exact opposite place in the line. I was speaking to the 4th from the least perks noted as the one having experienced 4th from the highest number of advantages. He is an African American pastor and our conversation was very candid. One of the thing he said, "It feels crazy to me that any second you could accuse me of rape or sexual assault and people would automatically take your word for it over mine." To which I said, "That's really interesting. For me, what floors me is that if you or anyone else did sexual assault me, the burden of proof for any ounce of legal recourse to those actions is entirely on me (to be able to access care quickly, to hope there's ANY concrete evidence, or a witness who somehow felt fine not to intervene but is still willing to testify, and that even if all of that does line up in court, there's no telling if there will be true repercussions or how much the cost to my own reputation or assumptions about my character, dress will be portrayed and up for media and public discussion... even if I "win" my case." It was fascinating to see how both of us, culturally, have been encouraged to have a fear of one another that had zero to do with who either of us actually were and how in my fear, I pressumed none of the power his fear presummed I had and vice versa.
Wendy: His focus on the two questions of belonging, (Who am I?), and purpose (What am I?) stood out most to me. These quotes in particular:
“All leaders of men have recognized the significance of this need for a sense of belonging”
“the powerful magnet that Hitler was to German youth. The youth had lost their sense of belonging.”
“If a man’s ego has been stabilized, resulting in a sure grounding of his sense of personal worth and dignity, then he is in a position to appraise his own intrinsic powers, gifts, talents, and abilities.”
The twin purposes of cultivating belonging and purpose have been following me for over a year. First in a John Maher's sermon, then during my sabbatical, and now here in Thurman’s 1940’s book. The "Who am I?" focus also jolted me because it is the name of Torrie Patterson's gospel album.
The question who are you and the answer ( a child of God) stood out to me, and the fact that this should be a GROUNDING, not a behavioural motivation and standard, which is what I was taught. perhaps this is what Thurman was getting at when he discusses the difference in how Paul vs the other disciples saw themselves? Still working this through.
Steve: It reiterated my belief that humanity exists on a wide spectrum. One that ranges from a primitive comprehension of personal emotions, self control and self reflection, to an astounding level of understanding and self awareness. That is reflected in philosophy and works of great art. It's is hard to equate the atrocity of rape, with the creation of something like Mozarts requiem, but both are the acts of humanity. The desire to pull those dwelling in the dark parts of human behavior by the majority who've risen to rule societies is consistent and long standing, either by example, by education, encouragement, or by punishment has done little to change this vast disparity in human behavior. While the more "evolved" look to a Star trek like society. The reality is that the majority of humanity have barely left their cave dwelling ancestors behind. Men like Jesus of Nazareth, or Siddhartha, simply stood out from the less evolved masses sufficient to warrant amplification to God status by the embattled thinking classes of their time in a (futile) effort to bring more humanity to the masses. Unfortunately, for the most part, it was and still remains unsuccessful .
The spectrum from abject depravity to extraordinary grace is mindblowing. I feel like both ends of the spectrum of continue to expand, swinging back and forth. I do believe Dr. King is correct that "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice". We just happen to be living in a time where the pendulum seems to be swinging toward the depravity end of the spectrum.
Steve: Personally, while I admire Dr. King, I don't share his optimism. Perhaps because I have had the benefit of social media, which has illuminated just how little humanity has evolved and how large the pool of the "un-evolved" still is, after all this time and all this effort. It's certainly disappointing.
Wendy: I think social media brings out the worst in people. I think many more evolved people are not active here (Chris and Cindy come to mind.). When I talk face to face with people, I rarely get the same level of ignorance that social media seems to foster. At least I hope that is true. My bluebonnet post confirmed that many remain silent out of fear.
Steve: Fear and Envy are the two driving forces I'm afraid, they are also the most embarrassing and are hidden behind layers of obfuscation because of it. Social media permits people to lift the veil somewhat, and reveals them, especially if the author isn't too bright. Sorry to be so negative, I'm in a bit of a downer over the whole Iran idiocy. ❤️
"What must have passed through his mind when he observed the contemptuous disregard for the Jews by the Romans, whose power had closed in on Israel? What thoughts raced through his mind when Judas of Galilee raised his rallying banner of defiance, sucking into the tempest of his embittered spirit many of the sons of Judah? Is it reasonable to assume that Jesus did not understand the anatomy of hatred? In the face of the obvious facts of his environment he counseled against hatred, and his word is, “Love your enemies,… that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.” Why? Despite all the positive psychological attributes of hatred we have outlined, hatred destroys finally the core of the life of the hater.
I think if those who choose to hate could understand that their hatred is a threat to themselves, as Thurman claims, perhaps they would not be so quick to oppress those they see as weak. It is baffling to me that Christians are often the ones who are most hateful. I got into a rediculous back and forth with one such self proclaiming Christian this week on Substack, I know it was foolish to engage with a stranger, but the person insisted their indiscriminate hatred of the LGBTQIA+ community was righteous. I should have shared this quote from Thurman with them
I have seen this in my own ministry: "If they reject the judgment, hatred may serve as a device for rebuilding, step by perilous step, the foundation for individual significance; so that from within the intensity of their necessity they declare their right to exist, despite the judgment of the environment."
This reminded me of Lupton's book Toxic Charity, "All kinds of first aid may be rendered to the weak; they may be protected so long as there is the abject acknowledgment of their utter dependence upon the strong."
Wendy: I was struck by the way Thurman says hatred begins - "often begins in a situation in which there is contact without fellowship, contact that is devoid of any of the primary overtures of warmth and fellow-feeling and genuineness."
Thurman points to Jesus focus on the inner life as an alternative to the resist or non-resistance political options of his time.
“He recognized fully that out of the heart are the issues of life and that no external force, however great and overwhelming, can at long last destroy a people if it does not first win the victory of the spirit against them… Again and again he came back to the inner life of the individual…He recognized with authentic realism that anyone who permits another to determine the quality of his inner life gives into the hands of the other the keys to his destiny.”
How does this focus on the inner life inform our current reality? How does it inform our actions in the face of injustice?
Wendy: I resonated with this quote, “I belong to a generation that finds very little that is meaningful or intelligent in the teachings of the Church concerning Jesus Christ. It is a generation largely in revolt because of the general impression that Christianity is essentially an other-worldly religion,” I think my knee jerk reaction to "inner life" focus is to make the faith "other worldly" but Thurman's definition of the inner life I shared in the post above is different from the "focus on heaven" kind of inner life.
I liked this quote, "Living in a climate of deep insecurity, Jesus, faced with so narrow a margin of civil guarantees, had to find some other basis upon which to establish a sense of well-being.
He knew that the goals of religion, as he understood them could never be worked out within the then-established order. Deep from within that order he projected a dream, the logic of which would give to all the needful security. There would be room for all, and no man would be a threat to his brother.
“The kingdom of God is within.”" Thinking of the Kingdom of God as an inner refuge from injustice, the kind of refuge that allows one to stand firm in the face of injustice is powerful.
Anna: In speaking of Jesus' meekness, lowliness of heart...
Thurman; "It was but natural that such a position would be deeply resented by many of his fellow, who were suffereing even as he was. To them it was a complete betrayal to the enemy. It was to them a counsel of acquiescense, if not of despair, full to overflowing with a kind of groveling and stark cowardice.... He [Jesus] recognized with authentic realism that anyone who permits another to determine the quality of his inner life gives into the hands of the other the keys to his destiny... It's a man's reaction to things that determines their ability to exercise power over him. It seems clear that Jesus understood the anatomy of the relationship between his people and the Romans, and he interpreseted that relationship against the background of the profoundest ethical insight of his own religious faith as he had found it in the heart of the prophets of Israel.
The solution which Jesus found for himself and for Israel... becomes the word and the work of redemption for all the cast-down people in every generation and in every age. I mean this quite literally...."
I am wrestling with this on 3 levels:
1. The profound impact of physical, sexual, mental, spiritual, and emotional trauma on the lived experiences of people in their biological (especially neurological) functioning and the danger of those already navigating such lived experiences being told that their ability/inability to manage their "reactions" will dictate their oppressor's ability to exercise power over them. So many scenarios come to mind in the world of mental health that I feel challenge the health of this assumption or at least how it is lived out in real time. (I was repeatedly told to "ignore" someone who was physically and verbally abusive to me in order to, I don't know, find calm or peace. In reality that was just a system tolerating treatment of me that it would never have tolerated for any other person in the system. That experience in tandem with faith has been foundational for me.)
2. This statement of Thurman's on its own, doesn't seem to nod to the numerous challenges to oppression and power Jesus makes within his own faith tradition. I mean... is there a dinner party he didn't make hella awkward? One cannot focus on the redemption of the cast-down without addressing the systems that cast them there.
3. When people talk about choosing their own interior, even in language of Bowen Systems "differentiation" it seems in so many who, like me, sit in seats of priviledge, that it is awfully easy to claim to be differentiated where in fact one is just apathetic. I think in many of Jesus' teachings, "turn the other cheek, give em the tunic too, go another mile" it has infinitely more teeth in those moments with the oppressor. Those actions in and of themselves are a formiddable protest and a commentary on the acts of the oppressor. There is a reclaiming of power there that feels important to me especially in regards to the salvific work and disruption of the path of the oppressor and the inclusion of them in the work of redemption not just of the cast-down, but perhaps of those cast-up to their own spiritual peril.
Wendy: There is a fine line between "ignoring" the injustice to keep the peace and thus allowing the trauma to continue and "turning the cheek" in a way that reclaims the power of the oppressed and condemns the oppressor. I also relate to the struggle in your second point about the systems work and how the Christian message does not simply become an excuse for apathy. I am hoping Thurman helps us with these challenges as we dive deeper into the text. Anna, thank you for pulling out and articulating so beautifully these challenges.
Ruth: I underlined almost all of page 11 about this; "His message focused on the urgency of a radical change in the inner attitude of the people. He recognized fully that out of the heart are the issues of life and that no external force, however great and overwhelming, can at long last destroy a people if it does not first win the victory of the spirit against them...he placed his finger on the 'inward center' as the crucial arena where the issues would determine the destiny of his people." I'm contemplating how to use Thurman's work here in chapter one with my sermon on Jesus' beatitudes this Sunday. Jesus' emphasis on our inner posture, of meekness, hunger for righteousness, mourning, peacemaking, etc., being salt and light because our spiritual depths are rooted in embodying Jesus' spirituality...a lot to draw from reading this! Thank you for putting me on to it! "Wherever his spirit appears, the oppressed gather fresh courage; for he announced the good news that fear, hypocrisy, and hatred, the three hounds of hell that track the trail of the disinherited, need hvae no dominion over them." (pg 19)
Anna: this is such an interesting invitation to reckon and process when thinking about vantage point. Like, when I envision Thurman's words for those being marginalized, this feels like food to endure and find a way. This feels so readily crucial to those who are oppressed. I think the beatitudes do the same. When I think about these words utlized from those who are not living in that marginalized experience, those of us, like me, who can turn regard or consideration of it off and on as it isn't showing up in the same way in my daily life, I wonder how these words still point me to using the priveledge that I have in solidarity and action towards the well being of my neighbor and the betterment of lived experience... The beatitudes seem to go so much farther in that respect if we're reading them in conjunction with the words that come after them in the sermon on the mount...
“Jesus, a poor non-Roman Jew, knew intimately what it meant to be “a member of a minority group in the midst of a larger dominant and controlling group...[in a time when] patriotic emotions were aroused to the highest pitch and then still more inflamed by the identification of national politics with a national religion.”
How does this historical context shape how we read the biblical accounts of that time?
Wendy: This political context the biblical narrative hit differently for me in Thurman's words and our current cultural reality. I was particularly struck by the gap between Jesus and the disciples and Paul's experience as expressed by Thurman, ”But unlike them, for the most part, he [Paul] was a free Jew; he was a citizen of Rome. A desert and a sea were placed between his status in the empire and that of his fellow Jews…On the one hand, he belonged to the privileged class. He had the freedom of the empire at his disposal. There were certain citizenship rights which he could claim despite his heritage, faith, and religion…He was of a minority but with majority privileges…Unless one actually lives day by day without a sense of security, he cannot understand what worlds separated Jesus from Paul at this point.” This gave me a bit more insight into the Apostle Paul (I relate to his grandma’s distrust of Paul but from a female perspective), the privileges he had as a Roman citizen, and the gap between him and the other apostles. It reminded me that there will always be a gap, and we are wise to honor it. It does not make one person good and one bad, just a different experience.
Ruth: This was very enlightening to me as well! I was also struck by the nonresistance and resistance groups Thurman describes, and how Jesus had all of these difference perspectives in his chosen 12. He was definitely modeling a unique, deeply spiritual and humble perspective to people who weren't there themselves, which took that humility in itself to be patient, I'm guessing!
Anna: and modeling non-violence all while inviting disciples from sects who did advocate for political violence in the first place... Brave!
Wendy: Thurman’s first line “TO SOME God and Jesus may appeal in a way other than to us: some may come to faith in God and to love, without a conscious attachment to Jesus.” and "Both Nature and good men besides Jesus may lead us to God." I know Thurman is considered a mystic and I am looking forward to understanding how that comes through in this text.
Ruth: The Hindu law college president's commentary on Christianity was very sobering! pgs 4-5.
In the Forward, we are reminded to pay attention to the culture gap between the context of the 1930’s and 1940’s when Thurman was writing and our present reality. What shifts in culture should we hold as we move through the text?
Wendy: I think the shift in the centrality of Christianity within the African American culture of Thurman's time (which the Forward names) and the increasingly secular and pluralistic reality is important to remember.
Anna: I know for me, that Thurman's work reminds me to consider how there is so much more than one, solo Christian Culture of America's expression, even in his own time... I think about in the first chapter the description of a church service disrupting itself to end the life of a black person and then coming back into the assembly... and that juxtaposed with a disinherited community finding oxygen for moving forward with Christ. This chapter also nodded me back to the reality for troops in WWII, often met with different provisions, training, and very different receptions on community homecoming for soldiers of color.
These cultureS of Christianity are running tandem since, Constantine, I suppose. I'd argue that this has been similar for so many women in Christendom as well, in structures holding them entirely accountable for the cleanliness, edible provision, and soft comfort of their families, organizing of women's and children's experience in their faith communities, often without offering to them the very things desired from them at home, or any agency of vote or authority adjacent to the perception of threat in their male counterparts.
These very different expressions of Christian culture also seem very much at the crux of what we are seeing in our current US immigration landscape.
And the parts of those differences that are culturally orchestrated... I say this as a graduate of Stonewall Jackson Middle (the Rebels) and Lee-Davis High School (The Confederates)... I learned the name of Stonewall Jackson's horse and where Jackson's arm was buried long before I'd ever heard of Medgar Evers or Ghandi... I didn't know Richmond had been the second-largest US port for the slave trade until after having finished a graduate degree in RVA. That's wild to me... It also seems like a reality that doesn't happen by accident. The impact of missing historical narrative (both locally and in understanding Christ's framework and gospel) have no small impact on resulting expressions of faith
Ruth: I think a lot about the secularization of younger people. It gives me hope for justice issues, and for "fresh expressions" of Christianity. As the Boomer generation dies off, churches are going to have to re-invent themselves in order to survive. We've been relying on old models of institutional identity and corporate structures.
I found what I was thinking: right there on page 1! "To those who need profound succor and strength to enable them to live in the present with dignity and creativity, Christianity has often been sterile and of little avail." To live with dignity and creativity is to truly be whole, I think.
Anna: I wonder how much of the failings in the attempt of "new" are born in attempts that aren't fully formed and honest of the old. I think generations are increasingly distrusting of institutions for many reasons but this lack of candor, especially of its own culpability in issues we face, seems, to me, one of the strongest aspects of self-sabotage the church experiences over and over when it hasn't yet learned to tell the shadow sides and failings of its own actions in becoming. As a tiny example: some churches appearing as "non-denoms" aren't even forthright about the denomination from whence they come or about the fact that they may still actually be in them
Wendy: This kind of hidden identity and unwillingness to wrestle with the shadow side of church history is leading so many who are tired of the lack of integrity to leave all together.
1. What stood out to you from the Forward and Preface?
Wendy: I appreciated this, “So Jesus’ guidance for the disinherited may be available only through some direct, creative, perhaps disguised encounters.”
Ruth: "Why is it that Christianity seems impotent to deal radically, and therefore effectively, with the issues of discrimination and injustice on the basis of race, religion and the national origin? Is this impotency due to a betrayal of the genius of the religion, or is it due to a basic weakness in the religion itself?" Oof. We see Christianity's impotence again today with its complicity with ICE's militarization and push for mass deportation.
Greetings, I am a late joiner, working off page from FB, so apologies. My comments are informed by many years of life, including being a child of missionaries, including boarding school, from Gr 1 - 9, as well as a father from Texas and a mother from Mass. but also some very specific conversations with Zimbabwe colleagues who have lived through some difficult times as a disinherited tribe that was pushed out of South Africa into the "wastelands" of Zimbabwe. I say this to give some context to the comments I will make.
So far I have just read through the two preface(s), and the insightful comments posted.
I was struck by the importance of culture, as a filter to what we write and read. That is culture writ large! The many cultures that combine to influence us. Even twins, probably experience the closest cultural experience, but I think can experience different cultural impacts given they are at times experiencing. My mother was a twin.
I say this to give grace and understanding if you don't understand, all that Howard writes, I don't, I can't (an old white man living in Canada) the specific culture Howard describes. |However If I look for the principles underneath the immediate experience by asking Why and what, maybe 7 times, I even at a distance can gain insights and lessons. What am I learning;
In broad terms it is that I as a person am not responsible for what my/the church has done historically, in Jesus name. The corollary is I am responsible for what it is doing now on various levels. I likely cannot address everything but I should address what I can to the extent I can.
I also appreciate the fact that Howard was raised by two women and dedicated his book to his two daughters. That is a pretty important piece of his culture.
What he writes about the oppressor is so powerful as I reflect on the stories of my Zimbabwean friends/family. "What they [the oppressor] believe, do, cause you to endure, does not testify to YOUR inferiority but to their inhumanity & fear" (quote from Baldwin) "it is a world that denies the sacredness of humanity" (writ large) as Howard moves into his topic, I appreciate and relate to the hounds of hell, Fear, Hypocrisy, Hatred. These are the dogs of the soul that I don't want to feed as I navigate this present western world. I often slip and give them scraps under the table. My bad!
I love the goal he sets out, to live in the present with dignity & creativity!
And I now understand who the book refers to.." the disinherited are those growing up in a society [community,family]that has made no provision for them. and I think every community I have ever been in, on 5 continents, has some!
On a closing note, I was fascinated by the distinction between liberation theology and liberating spirituality, the later being far more important. I look forward to this group helping me in a transformational, joyful exploration of the intersection personal and societal views of caring. (again writ large!)
I love learning more about your background. I have never lived outside the USA. I look forward to learning how that understanding of culture shapes how you read Thurman. I am also glad to have a Canadian join the conversation. I think your perspective as an outsider to our very sad racial history might be unique.
Thanks Wendy for your comments. One observation is that although you note "our [USA] sad racial history" it is in no way unique. I have spent time in 4 out of the 6 continental masses. (Yes I know that most people believe that there are 7 but, are there really? - another discussion) In all those places I have been introduced to groups of disinherited. Leaving that aside, In chapter 1, I was struck by the question,"What must be [our] attitude towards the controllers of the political/social/and economic life" where I live? Followed by the discussion of Resistance and non- resistance. I need to cogitate on that for awhile.
The other thing that popped into my mind was the following unpublished poem by a dear friend from Zimbabwe that I share with permission but ask it not be re posted at this time for various reasons.
Reflections on Chapter 3
Great reflection! Another great topic to dive into when we come together.
What was your overall take-a-way?
Wendy: I am thankful for Thurman’s wisdom about deception and how to combat it. I want to believe that truth will prevail, but when AI deep fakes and conspiracy theories rule the day I am really feeling like we are buried under an avalanche of deception. When lies are told daily by those in the highest offices of our land, it is very hard to remain hopeful.
Ruth: yaaaasss 😫 It is discouraging out there. I read somewhere recently that between bots and extremists, we think things are far worse than they actually are. If we can have face-to-face conversations with people, we'll likely find a lot of common ground.
I found this chapter the hardest so far. The big question for me was "are there times when to tell the truth is to be false to the truth that is within you." Having spent time in countries where to tell the truth may have an effect on you BUT have an even greater effect on another person/group. Because of my privilege (old, white, male, Canadian) I may get booted out of a country for truth telling/not practising transparency, but my friends, the disinherited of the country, might end up jailed or worse. This is where I struggle, it is one thing to be honest as a member of the disinherited and another to be honest when you are OUTSIDE the disinherited but the consequences will fall on the disinherited to a greater extent.
There is perhaps, a parallel situation where a person uses the "cover" of the disinherited as justification to deceive. The most striking example of this is when
you deceive in the name of religion to advance "a greater good". Deliberately, defying the law of the land by smuggling in Bibles or swearing you are doing NO evangelism and then evangelizing. These are deceptions that I personally can not justify. However I know it to be a struggle (or not) for many others.
What was most helpful and why?
Ruth: Before I "worked out my own salvation", I was very certain about lots of things. But then life threw some curveballs and the framework of my faith couldn't stand up under that weight. I realized it wasn't all true, and I felt deceived to some degree. When I was in a more concrete, high-control religion, I knew what to say to be accepted and rewarded. I didn't know how to think for myself, or stand up for a different point of view. I think this chapter is very helpful on learning the importance of being fully sincere and honest. Because we need more honest conversations with each other, especially across ideological, social, cultural, theological, etc. boundaries. You never know who is listening in or reading along. I was that person years ago, finding my own voice and becoming more integrated and honest.
Wendy: “Sincerity in human relations is equal to, and the same as, sincerity to God.”
“we come upon the stark fact that the insistence of Jesus upon genuineness is absolute; man’s relation to man and man’s relation to God are one relation.”
When I think of my sincerity being more about my relationship with the sacred, as much as it is about my relationship with other humans, that does call forth a level of conviction to speak my truth.
“There must always be the confidence that the effect of truthfulness can be realized in the mind of the oppressor as well as the oppressed. There is no substitute for such a faith.”
“In the presence of an overwhelming sincerity on the part of the disinherited, the dominant themselves are caught with no defense, with the edge taken away from the sense of prerogative and from the status upon which the impregnability of their position rests.”
This idea that my truth might awaken the truth in those who see me as “other” makes me want to try but so often, I see people who have been taught that they are somehow superior to those they see as “other” double down on that belief when they are confronted.
What did you find most challenging?
The most challenging is to wrestle with the difference between the mindset/world view of the disinherited and that of the privileged, that would walk alongside. Being the "Roman citizen", when and how do we use that in addressing equity (or lack of) in our journey with the disinherited.
I think his final chapter might help but I also think this is a great question for our group to explore when we meet via zoom.
Wendy: “I have in my possession a copy of a letter from Mahatma Gandhi to Muriel Lester. The letter says in part: “Speak the truth, without fear and without exception, and see everyone whose work is related to your purpose. You are in God’s work, so you need not fear man’s scorn. If they listen to your requests and grant them, you will be satisfied. If they reject them, then you must make their rejection your strength.”
“The acceptance of this alternative is to be simply, directly truthful, whatever may be the cost in life, limb, or security.”
This week, I posted an article on my Substack about an experience I had in Texas that felt very scary to me. As a woman who grew up in the South, I really struggle to speak courageously about politics and theology. The one place I feel bold is when speaking as a mother. So, when my role of mother intersects with theology and politics, I am deeply conflicted. In the end, I shared the post. We shall see if it causes harm or leads to the kind of liberation that Thurman claims it can. I am not very good at turning rejection into strength!
Ruth: Good job being brave and sharing your important essay, Wendy!!! I think Thurman's call to sincerity and truthfulness is so hard because it is drilled into us what is socially acceptable, and we know there is fallout and a cost to deviating from that. But I have found that only using the socially accepted scripts does feel deceptive and untrue, coming from my lips. So I've learned to be more bold with time and practice, saying what I really think or feel (not always, but way more than I used to!). Even saying nothing in the face of something I think is wrong feels like a deception now.
What stood out to you?
Wendy: “Above all else the disinherited must not have any stake in the social order; they must be made to feel that they are alien, that it is a great boon to be allowed to remain alive, not be exterminated. This was the psychology of the Nazis; it grew out of their theory of the state and the place given the Hebrew people in their ideology. Such is also the attitude of the Ku Klux Klan toward Negroes.”
“From our analysis of the life of Jesus it seems clear that it was from within the framework of great social pressures upon him and his group that he taught and lived to the very end.”
“The experience of power has no meaning aside from the other-than-self reference which sustains it.”
“A man is a man, no more, no less. The awareness of this fact marks the supreme moment of human dignity.”
I would add the Immigrants, the Queer community, progressive Christians, and other faith traditions to that list in our current reality. The thread of “othering” as a tool for silencing or distorting the values of the “out” group really stood out to me in this section. While I could not relate to it as a racial minority, I felt it most starkly as the mother of queer children living in an ultra-conservative rural community, most devastatingly from within conservative Christian circles who would see me as “other” because I do not ascribe to their version of Christianity.
Ruth: Standout quotes for me: "if a man continues to call a good thing bad, he will eventually lose his sense of moral distinctions." p54
"The penalty of deception is to become a deception, with all sense of moral discrimination vitiated." p55
"It is true that we are often bound by a network of social relations that operate upon us without being particularly affected by us. We are all affected by forces, social and natural, that in some measure determine our behavior without our being able to bring to bear upon them our private will, however great it may be." p56-57
"A profound piece of surgery has to take place in the very psyche of the disinherited before the great claim of the religion of Jesus can be presented. The great stretches of barren places in the soul must be revitalized, brought to life, before they can be challenged." p58
"Mere preaching is not enough. What are words, however sacred and powerful, in the presence of the grim facts of the daily struggle to survive?" p59
"Unwavering sincerity says that man should always recognize the fact that he lives always in the presence of God, always under the divine scrutiny, and that there is no really significant living for a man, whatever may be his status, until he has turned and faced the divine scrutiny. Here all men stand stripped to the literal substance of themselves, without disguise, without pretension, without seeming whatsoever. No man can fool God. From him nothing is hidden." p61
"Sincerity in human relations is equal to, and the same as, sincerity to God." p62
So many good thoughts and examples. Really I can add no more. Thank-you for your contributions.
Reflections on Chapter 2
What did you find most helpful?
Joyce: So I’ll share my thoughts before reading what others have said - so if I’m being redundant, my apologies 😊 …
This chapter provoked so many trains of thought. I felt in this chapter I saw a conversation on autonomy and ontology, but in this particular segment, agency.
One of the most effective ways to oppress entire people groups is by stripping them of these three - taking away their belief that they have what it takes for self determination, strip people of an identity beyond how the are relevant to the oppressor, and the belief that they have an ability or gifts to effect change for themselves and the world. When systems deprive people of this knowledge, they deny people of those things that are innately part of being human. A healthy person believes they have something to add to the world and the ability to share it.
I was particularly struck by Thurmond’s conversation regarding children and empowering them to dream and develop within this context. We can communicate with words to a person of their infinite worth, but when we communicate in every other way the opposite, that worth is not internalized and incorporated into one’s identity. Instilling the belief that someone has value is powerful - believing that you have something to contribute to society and that you belong is a critical aspect to a person’s well being and their ability to thrive. (Hello Mr. Maslow!) Thurmond’s illustration of Hitler youth was a compelling demonstration of this - and we see the same sort need being met through gangs and the sexual abuse - of girls in particular.
Working with incarcerated youth the most powerful thing I was able to do for the kids I worked with was to help them see that God created them on purpose and for a purpose - that they have value to the Kingdom. After working in ministry with seniors, I saw this same thirst. When any person is denied the belief that they are irrelevant, we shrink back, accept scraps and forfeit our ontology.
I probably digressed a little too hard from the thread. 😬 Apologies. I look forward now to seeing other’s thoughts.
Joyce: I did love this imagery. It was powerful. I think there are so many kids who never had this time of limitlessness. I find so much joy in working with teens and adults who missed this and giving them this opportunity later in life. I feel wildly in touch with God when I take a suburban mom and guide her in dreaming and embracing who it is she’s been called to be and watching her live into her gifts. It’s pure magic.
Wendy: “Youth is a time of soaring hopes, when dreams are given first wings and, as reconnoitering birds, explore unknown landscapes. Again and again, a man full of years is merely the corroboration of the dreams of his youth.” This quote stood out as confirmation of why I love youth-driven development so much.
“It ill behooves the man who is not forced to live in a ghetto to tell those who must how to transcend its limitations.” This one is at the core of the type of community-driven work I do which requires a lot of deconstruction of our inherited ways of "helping."
Anna: I appreciated that too and his point about no one really wanting the pity of their neighbor over more just and equitable functioning, which Thurman clearly isn't holding out hope for full realization of such in his timeframe. Here again, in his addressing the experience of youth, I would have loved to see what a Trauma-Informed Thurman would have written and offered from his theological insights and what we know now about how trauma impacts brain function and development!
What I found helpful, was the writing on segregation, I have often felt that this concept has been to narrowly defined, so this chapter helped me to be more curious and forthright about that. The question I find myself asking in many situations now is "What are the subtle ways that segregation (writ large) is being practised in this situation. It may be race +, but often times we stop at race or gender, and I think there are more ways segregation creeps in.
What did you find most challenging?
Joyce: I think this speaks to that sense of worth that is absent in so many (including me). I think when we know that we have been created as a coequal child of the Kingdom, it empowers us to do things without that fear of the perspective of others. I still struggle, but every time I would go for my interviews as part of my UMC candidacy process, I was terrified that they would reject me and think I was foolish for thinking I could ever be called. I still have rushes of anxiety as I prepare for the next level of interviews, but I have finally come to a place that I own my call - now I just hope that I’m good enough at articulating it so others can see it too.
Callie: thanks for sharing your challenge, which also challenges me. Sure, lots of things are worse than death, and death can be a relief and a blessing. But this goes deeper. I am thinking that the best parts of us die when we aren't genuine and authentic; and the worst parts of us are given more space. Maybe I can be more afraid of those outcomes than of the more temporary fears that sometimes hold me back. I also remember learning years ago that I probably can't even perceive the things that I am unwilling to accept, including direction from God.
Wendy: “Such a man recognizes that death cannot possibly be the worst thing in the world. There are some things that are worse than death. To deny one’s own integrity of personality in the presence of the human challenge is one of those things. “Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do,” says Jesus.”
I struggle with fear. Not so much for my bodily safety, but fear of making a mistake, especially when it comes to putting myself out there and being rejected. This quote is challenging me. Is not trying, not following my calling, not staying true to my own integrity in the face of challenges worse than death?
I think Thurman would say, to do so would mean I am not fully alive if I don’t. So for Thurman, yes…worse than death. He literally says, “If you cannot hear the sound of the genuine within you, you will never find whatever it is for which you are searching, and if you hear it and then do not follow it, it was better that you had never been born.” In his 1980 commencement speech at Spelman College. I need to sit with this one and let it work on me a bit.
Anna: I think in light of the reading I've done about trauma and trauma's impact on development, I very much wrestle with the words of Jesus that Thurman is citing. I think Thurman so wonderfully describes fear as a part of the landscape (smog over a city) that just becomes part of life for the disinherited. It's not merely the idea of fear that is prevelant but ample reason and lived experience which warrant the awareness or concern, especially for those Thurman describes as the disinherited. While we do have these texts of Christ's talking about not worrying... you know, for those who can only take your life (along with your peace, health, safety...) we also have Jesus having mercy on women at full volume begging for the healing of their kid, women sneaking up just to touch his garment and him refusing to move forward without acknowledging the "energy that had left him" and her faith. We have the bereaved Christ feeding thousands in the wake of his cousin's murder and pulling an all nighter walking across the sea... We have a Christ who says to be worried for nothing but in the end is "grieved, even to death" and begging his bros to keep watch with him in his anguish. There is a tension in that which feels life giving to me in reckoning my own experiences and sitting with the experiences of my neighbor.
What stood out to you from chapter 2?
Joyce: I think my comment further down probably would fit here in the discussion 🫤 … I was extremely impressed with a refusal to acknowledge an individual’s innate worth - and actual being - is such a powerful tool of oppression. When we accept that we are less than in a society (even if we feel it’s an injustice) and when we feel disconnected to any of the levers of power, people become so vulnerable and driven by fear. When Thurmond’s spoke about how we are physically changed by this condition- through his example of snakes in India - I immediately recognized how nearly physically impossible it was for me to look men in the eye and hold my head up - I am better than I was, but as a fear driven response, my posture and how I communicated constantly showed deference to men. I didn’t feel like I had any authority, agency, or control in the world.
Anna: That was a big takeaway for me in this chapter too, even though Thurman isn't specifically addressing it. Over and over I found myself replacing his varying uses of the disinherited/oppressed with women in reading the text. In so many representations of Christendom they don't even have the guise of someone saying they are hypothetically equal to their male counterparts and equipt to serve in like and identical roles...
Years ago I was in a Christian leadership program where the group had answered a series of questions pointing to perks and challenges of our lived experience; realities over which we ourselves would have no control. And then we lined up according to the number of perks/lack of perks and bowed that line to share a conversation partner who was at the exact opposite place in the line. I was speaking to the 4th from the least perks noted as the one having experienced 4th from the highest number of advantages. He is an African American pastor and our conversation was very candid. One of the thing he said, "It feels crazy to me that any second you could accuse me of rape or sexual assault and people would automatically take your word for it over mine." To which I said, "That's really interesting. For me, what floors me is that if you or anyone else did sexual assault me, the burden of proof for any ounce of legal recourse to those actions is entirely on me (to be able to access care quickly, to hope there's ANY concrete evidence, or a witness who somehow felt fine not to intervene but is still willing to testify, and that even if all of that does line up in court, there's no telling if there will be true repercussions or how much the cost to my own reputation or assumptions about my character, dress will be portrayed and up for media and public discussion... even if I "win" my case." It was fascinating to see how both of us, culturally, have been encouraged to have a fear of one another that had zero to do with who either of us actually were and how in my fear, I pressumed none of the power his fear presummed I had and vice versa.
Wendy: I relate to the end of this comment. I felt this far more in the church than I did in public accounting. It’s so sad to me.
Wendy: His focus on the two questions of belonging, (Who am I?), and purpose (What am I?) stood out most to me. These quotes in particular:
“All leaders of men have recognized the significance of this need for a sense of belonging”
“the powerful magnet that Hitler was to German youth. The youth had lost their sense of belonging.”
“If a man’s ego has been stabilized, resulting in a sure grounding of his sense of personal worth and dignity, then he is in a position to appraise his own intrinsic powers, gifts, talents, and abilities.”
The twin purposes of cultivating belonging and purpose have been following me for over a year. First in a John Maher's sermon, then during my sabbatical, and now here in Thurman’s 1940’s book. The "Who am I?" focus also jolted me because it is the name of Torrie Patterson's gospel album.
The question who are you and the answer ( a child of God) stood out to me, and the fact that this should be a GROUNDING, not a behavioural motivation and standard, which is what I was taught. perhaps this is what Thurman was getting at when he discusses the difference in how Paul vs the other disciples saw themselves? Still working this through.
Reflections on Chapter 5
Reflections on Chapter 4
How are Thurman’s words relevant to us today?
Steve: It reiterated my belief that humanity exists on a wide spectrum. One that ranges from a primitive comprehension of personal emotions, self control and self reflection, to an astounding level of understanding and self awareness. That is reflected in philosophy and works of great art. It's is hard to equate the atrocity of rape, with the creation of something like Mozarts requiem, but both are the acts of humanity. The desire to pull those dwelling in the dark parts of human behavior by the majority who've risen to rule societies is consistent and long standing, either by example, by education, encouragement, or by punishment has done little to change this vast disparity in human behavior. While the more "evolved" look to a Star trek like society. The reality is that the majority of humanity have barely left their cave dwelling ancestors behind. Men like Jesus of Nazareth, or Siddhartha, simply stood out from the less evolved masses sufficient to warrant amplification to God status by the embattled thinking classes of their time in a (futile) effort to bring more humanity to the masses. Unfortunately, for the most part, it was and still remains unsuccessful .
Wendy McCaig
The spectrum from abject depravity to extraordinary grace is mindblowing. I feel like both ends of the spectrum of continue to expand, swinging back and forth. I do believe Dr. King is correct that "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice". We just happen to be living in a time where the pendulum seems to be swinging toward the depravity end of the spectrum.
Steve: Personally, while I admire Dr. King, I don't share his optimism. Perhaps because I have had the benefit of social media, which has illuminated just how little humanity has evolved and how large the pool of the "un-evolved" still is, after all this time and all this effort. It's certainly disappointing.
Wendy: I think social media brings out the worst in people. I think many more evolved people are not active here (Chris and Cindy come to mind.). When I talk face to face with people, I rarely get the same level of ignorance that social media seems to foster. At least I hope that is true. My bluebonnet post confirmed that many remain silent out of fear.
Steve: Fear and Envy are the two driving forces I'm afraid, they are also the most embarrassing and are hidden behind layers of obfuscation because of it. Social media permits people to lift the veil somewhat, and reveals them, especially if the author isn't too bright. Sorry to be so negative, I'm in a bit of a downer over the whole Iran idiocy. ❤️
Wendy McCaig
"What must have passed through his mind when he observed the contemptuous disregard for the Jews by the Romans, whose power had closed in on Israel? What thoughts raced through his mind when Judas of Galilee raised his rallying banner of defiance, sucking into the tempest of his embittered spirit many of the sons of Judah? Is it reasonable to assume that Jesus did not understand the anatomy of hatred? In the face of the obvious facts of his environment he counseled against hatred, and his word is, “Love your enemies,… that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.” Why? Despite all the positive psychological attributes of hatred we have outlined, hatred destroys finally the core of the life of the hater.
Geraldine: hateful people are inherently self destructive
Wendy McCaig
I think if those who choose to hate could understand that their hatred is a threat to themselves, as Thurman claims, perhaps they would not be so quick to oppress those they see as weak. It is baffling to me that Christians are often the ones who are most hateful. I got into a rediculous back and forth with one such self proclaiming Christian this week on Substack, I know it was foolish to engage with a stranger, but the person insisted their indiscriminate hatred of the LGBTQIA+ community was righteous. I should have shared this quote from Thurman with them
Wendy McCaig
I have seen this in my own ministry: "If they reject the judgment, hatred may serve as a device for rebuilding, step by perilous step, the foundation for individual significance; so that from within the intensity of their necessity they declare their right to exist, despite the judgment of the environment."
What stood out to you from Thurman’s reflection on hate?
Anna: So many gender norm parallels here! Phew!
This reminded me of Lupton's book Toxic Charity, "All kinds of first aid may be rendered to the weak; they may be protected so long as there is the abject acknowledgment of their utter dependence upon the strong."
Wendy: I was struck by the way Thurman says hatred begins - "often begins in a situation in which there is contact without fellowship, contact that is devoid of any of the primary overtures of warmth and fellow-feeling and genuineness."
Reflections on Chapter 5
Reflections on Chapter 4
Reflections on Chapter 4
Reflections on Chapter 1
COMMENTS FROM FACEBOOK DISCUSSION
Thurman points to Jesus focus on the inner life as an alternative to the resist or non-resistance political options of his time.
“He recognized fully that out of the heart are the issues of life and that no external force, however great and overwhelming, can at long last destroy a people if it does not first win the victory of the spirit against them… Again and again he came back to the inner life of the individual…He recognized with authentic realism that anyone who permits another to determine the quality of his inner life gives into the hands of the other the keys to his destiny.”
How does this focus on the inner life inform our current reality? How does it inform our actions in the face of injustice?
Wendy: I resonated with this quote, “I belong to a generation that finds very little that is meaningful or intelligent in the teachings of the Church concerning Jesus Christ. It is a generation largely in revolt because of the general impression that Christianity is essentially an other-worldly religion,” I think my knee jerk reaction to "inner life" focus is to make the faith "other worldly" but Thurman's definition of the inner life I shared in the post above is different from the "focus on heaven" kind of inner life.
I liked this quote, "Living in a climate of deep insecurity, Jesus, faced with so narrow a margin of civil guarantees, had to find some other basis upon which to establish a sense of well-being.
He knew that the goals of religion, as he understood them could never be worked out within the then-established order. Deep from within that order he projected a dream, the logic of which would give to all the needful security. There would be room for all, and no man would be a threat to his brother.
“The kingdom of God is within.”" Thinking of the Kingdom of God as an inner refuge from injustice, the kind of refuge that allows one to stand firm in the face of injustice is powerful.
Anna: In speaking of Jesus' meekness, lowliness of heart...
Thurman; "It was but natural that such a position would be deeply resented by many of his fellow, who were suffereing even as he was. To them it was a complete betrayal to the enemy. It was to them a counsel of acquiescense, if not of despair, full to overflowing with a kind of groveling and stark cowardice.... He [Jesus] recognized with authentic realism that anyone who permits another to determine the quality of his inner life gives into the hands of the other the keys to his destiny... It's a man's reaction to things that determines their ability to exercise power over him. It seems clear that Jesus understood the anatomy of the relationship between his people and the Romans, and he interpreseted that relationship against the background of the profoundest ethical insight of his own religious faith as he had found it in the heart of the prophets of Israel.
The solution which Jesus found for himself and for Israel... becomes the word and the work of redemption for all the cast-down people in every generation and in every age. I mean this quite literally...."
I am wrestling with this on 3 levels:
1. The profound impact of physical, sexual, mental, spiritual, and emotional trauma on the lived experiences of people in their biological (especially neurological) functioning and the danger of those already navigating such lived experiences being told that their ability/inability to manage their "reactions" will dictate their oppressor's ability to exercise power over them. So many scenarios come to mind in the world of mental health that I feel challenge the health of this assumption or at least how it is lived out in real time. (I was repeatedly told to "ignore" someone who was physically and verbally abusive to me in order to, I don't know, find calm or peace. In reality that was just a system tolerating treatment of me that it would never have tolerated for any other person in the system. That experience in tandem with faith has been foundational for me.)
2. This statement of Thurman's on its own, doesn't seem to nod to the numerous challenges to oppression and power Jesus makes within his own faith tradition. I mean... is there a dinner party he didn't make hella awkward? One cannot focus on the redemption of the cast-down without addressing the systems that cast them there.
3. When people talk about choosing their own interior, even in language of Bowen Systems "differentiation" it seems in so many who, like me, sit in seats of priviledge, that it is awfully easy to claim to be differentiated where in fact one is just apathetic. I think in many of Jesus' teachings, "turn the other cheek, give em the tunic too, go another mile" it has infinitely more teeth in those moments with the oppressor. Those actions in and of themselves are a formiddable protest and a commentary on the acts of the oppressor. There is a reclaiming of power there that feels important to me especially in regards to the salvific work and disruption of the path of the oppressor and the inclusion of them in the work of redemption not just of the cast-down, but perhaps of those cast-up to their own spiritual peril.
Wendy: There is a fine line between "ignoring" the injustice to keep the peace and thus allowing the trauma to continue and "turning the cheek" in a way that reclaims the power of the oppressed and condemns the oppressor. I also relate to the struggle in your second point about the systems work and how the Christian message does not simply become an excuse for apathy. I am hoping Thurman helps us with these challenges as we dive deeper into the text. Anna, thank you for pulling out and articulating so beautifully these challenges.
Ruth: I underlined almost all of page 11 about this; "His message focused on the urgency of a radical change in the inner attitude of the people. He recognized fully that out of the heart are the issues of life and that no external force, however great and overwhelming, can at long last destroy a people if it does not first win the victory of the spirit against them...he placed his finger on the 'inward center' as the crucial arena where the issues would determine the destiny of his people." I'm contemplating how to use Thurman's work here in chapter one with my sermon on Jesus' beatitudes this Sunday. Jesus' emphasis on our inner posture, of meekness, hunger for righteousness, mourning, peacemaking, etc., being salt and light because our spiritual depths are rooted in embodying Jesus' spirituality...a lot to draw from reading this! Thank you for putting me on to it! "Wherever his spirit appears, the oppressed gather fresh courage; for he announced the good news that fear, hypocrisy, and hatred, the three hounds of hell that track the trail of the disinherited, need hvae no dominion over them." (pg 19)
Anna: this is such an interesting invitation to reckon and process when thinking about vantage point. Like, when I envision Thurman's words for those being marginalized, this feels like food to endure and find a way. This feels so readily crucial to those who are oppressed. I think the beatitudes do the same. When I think about these words utlized from those who are not living in that marginalized experience, those of us, like me, who can turn regard or consideration of it off and on as it isn't showing up in the same way in my daily life, I wonder how these words still point me to using the priveledge that I have in solidarity and action towards the well being of my neighbor and the betterment of lived experience... The beatitudes seem to go so much farther in that respect if we're reading them in conjunction with the words that come after them in the sermon on the mount...
COMMENTS FROM FACEBOOK DISCUSSION
“Jesus, a poor non-Roman Jew, knew intimately what it meant to be “a member of a minority group in the midst of a larger dominant and controlling group...[in a time when] patriotic emotions were aroused to the highest pitch and then still more inflamed by the identification of national politics with a national religion.”
How does this historical context shape how we read the biblical accounts of that time?
Wendy: This political context the biblical narrative hit differently for me in Thurman's words and our current cultural reality. I was particularly struck by the gap between Jesus and the disciples and Paul's experience as expressed by Thurman, ”But unlike them, for the most part, he [Paul] was a free Jew; he was a citizen of Rome. A desert and a sea were placed between his status in the empire and that of his fellow Jews…On the one hand, he belonged to the privileged class. He had the freedom of the empire at his disposal. There were certain citizenship rights which he could claim despite his heritage, faith, and religion…He was of a minority but with majority privileges…Unless one actually lives day by day without a sense of security, he cannot understand what worlds separated Jesus from Paul at this point.” This gave me a bit more insight into the Apostle Paul (I relate to his grandma’s distrust of Paul but from a female perspective), the privileges he had as a Roman citizen, and the gap between him and the other apostles. It reminded me that there will always be a gap, and we are wise to honor it. It does not make one person good and one bad, just a different experience.
Ruth: This was very enlightening to me as well! I was also struck by the nonresistance and resistance groups Thurman describes, and how Jesus had all of these difference perspectives in his chosen 12. He was definitely modeling a unique, deeply spiritual and humble perspective to people who weren't there themselves, which took that humility in itself to be patient, I'm guessing!
Anna: and modeling non-violence all while inviting disciples from sects who did advocate for political violence in the first place... Brave!
COMMENTS FROM FACEBOOK DISCUSSION
Wendy: Thurman’s first line “TO SOME God and Jesus may appeal in a way other than to us: some may come to faith in God and to love, without a conscious attachment to Jesus.” and "Both Nature and good men besides Jesus may lead us to God." I know Thurman is considered a mystic and I am looking forward to understanding how that comes through in this text.
Ruth: The Hindu law college president's commentary on Christianity was very sobering! pgs 4-5.
Reflections on Preface and Foreword:
COMMENTS FROM FACEBOOK DISCUSSION:
In the Forward, we are reminded to pay attention to the culture gap between the context of the 1930’s and 1940’s when Thurman was writing and our present reality. What shifts in culture should we hold as we move through the text?
Wendy: I think the shift in the centrality of Christianity within the African American culture of Thurman's time (which the Forward names) and the increasingly secular and pluralistic reality is important to remember.
Anna: I know for me, that Thurman's work reminds me to consider how there is so much more than one, solo Christian Culture of America's expression, even in his own time... I think about in the first chapter the description of a church service disrupting itself to end the life of a black person and then coming back into the assembly... and that juxtaposed with a disinherited community finding oxygen for moving forward with Christ. This chapter also nodded me back to the reality for troops in WWII, often met with different provisions, training, and very different receptions on community homecoming for soldiers of color.
These cultureS of Christianity are running tandem since, Constantine, I suppose. I'd argue that this has been similar for so many women in Christendom as well, in structures holding them entirely accountable for the cleanliness, edible provision, and soft comfort of their families, organizing of women's and children's experience in their faith communities, often without offering to them the very things desired from them at home, or any agency of vote or authority adjacent to the perception of threat in their male counterparts.
These very different expressions of Christian culture also seem very much at the crux of what we are seeing in our current US immigration landscape.
And the parts of those differences that are culturally orchestrated... I say this as a graduate of Stonewall Jackson Middle (the Rebels) and Lee-Davis High School (The Confederates)... I learned the name of Stonewall Jackson's horse and where Jackson's arm was buried long before I'd ever heard of Medgar Evers or Ghandi... I didn't know Richmond had been the second-largest US port for the slave trade until after having finished a graduate degree in RVA. That's wild to me... It also seems like a reality that doesn't happen by accident. The impact of missing historical narrative (both locally and in understanding Christ's framework and gospel) have no small impact on resulting expressions of faith
Ruth: I think a lot about the secularization of younger people. It gives me hope for justice issues, and for "fresh expressions" of Christianity. As the Boomer generation dies off, churches are going to have to re-invent themselves in order to survive. We've been relying on old models of institutional identity and corporate structures.
I found what I was thinking: right there on page 1! "To those who need profound succor and strength to enable them to live in the present with dignity and creativity, Christianity has often been sterile and of little avail." To live with dignity and creativity is to truly be whole, I think.
Anna: I wonder how much of the failings in the attempt of "new" are born in attempts that aren't fully formed and honest of the old. I think generations are increasingly distrusting of institutions for many reasons but this lack of candor, especially of its own culpability in issues we face, seems, to me, one of the strongest aspects of self-sabotage the church experiences over and over when it hasn't yet learned to tell the shadow sides and failings of its own actions in becoming. As a tiny example: some churches appearing as "non-denoms" aren't even forthright about the denomination from whence they come or about the fact that they may still actually be in them
Wendy: This kind of hidden identity and unwillingness to wrestle with the shadow side of church history is leading so many who are tired of the lack of integrity to leave all together.
COMMENTS FROM FACEBOOK DISCUSSION
1. What stood out to you from the Forward and Preface?
Wendy: I appreciated this, “So Jesus’ guidance for the disinherited may be available only through some direct, creative, perhaps disguised encounters.”
Ruth: "Why is it that Christianity seems impotent to deal radically, and therefore effectively, with the issues of discrimination and injustice on the basis of race, religion and the national origin? Is this impotency due to a betrayal of the genius of the religion, or is it due to a basic weakness in the religion itself?" Oof. We see Christianity's impotence again today with its complicity with ICE's militarization and push for mass deportation.
I'm glad you are curating the conversation.
Greetings, I am a late joiner, working off page from FB, so apologies. My comments are informed by many years of life, including being a child of missionaries, including boarding school, from Gr 1 - 9, as well as a father from Texas and a mother from Mass. but also some very specific conversations with Zimbabwe colleagues who have lived through some difficult times as a disinherited tribe that was pushed out of South Africa into the "wastelands" of Zimbabwe. I say this to give some context to the comments I will make.
So far I have just read through the two preface(s), and the insightful comments posted.
I was struck by the importance of culture, as a filter to what we write and read. That is culture writ large! The many cultures that combine to influence us. Even twins, probably experience the closest cultural experience, but I think can experience different cultural impacts given they are at times experiencing. My mother was a twin.
I say this to give grace and understanding if you don't understand, all that Howard writes, I don't, I can't (an old white man living in Canada) the specific culture Howard describes. |However If I look for the principles underneath the immediate experience by asking Why and what, maybe 7 times, I even at a distance can gain insights and lessons. What am I learning;
In broad terms it is that I as a person am not responsible for what my/the church has done historically, in Jesus name. The corollary is I am responsible for what it is doing now on various levels. I likely cannot address everything but I should address what I can to the extent I can.
I also appreciate the fact that Howard was raised by two women and dedicated his book to his two daughters. That is a pretty important piece of his culture.
What he writes about the oppressor is so powerful as I reflect on the stories of my Zimbabwean friends/family. "What they [the oppressor] believe, do, cause you to endure, does not testify to YOUR inferiority but to their inhumanity & fear" (quote from Baldwin) "it is a world that denies the sacredness of humanity" (writ large) as Howard moves into his topic, I appreciate and relate to the hounds of hell, Fear, Hypocrisy, Hatred. These are the dogs of the soul that I don't want to feed as I navigate this present western world. I often slip and give them scraps under the table. My bad!
I love the goal he sets out, to live in the present with dignity & creativity!
And I now understand who the book refers to.." the disinherited are those growing up in a society [community,family]that has made no provision for them. and I think every community I have ever been in, on 5 continents, has some!
On a closing note, I was fascinated by the distinction between liberation theology and liberating spirituality, the later being far more important. I look forward to this group helping me in a transformational, joyful exploration of the intersection personal and societal views of caring. (again writ large!)
Again, another insight I missed - Liberation theology and liberating spirituality. I would love to dive into that more deeply in our group discussion.
I did not catch that. Thank you for pointing that out.
I love learning more about your background. I have never lived outside the USA. I look forward to learning how that understanding of culture shapes how you read Thurman. I am also glad to have a Canadian join the conversation. I think your perspective as an outsider to our very sad racial history might be unique.
Thanks Wendy for your comments. One observation is that although you note "our [USA] sad racial history" it is in no way unique. I have spent time in 4 out of the 6 continental masses. (Yes I know that most people believe that there are 7 but, are there really? - another discussion) In all those places I have been introduced to groups of disinherited. Leaving that aside, In chapter 1, I was struck by the question,"What must be [our] attitude towards the controllers of the political/social/and economic life" where I live? Followed by the discussion of Resistance and non- resistance. I need to cogitate on that for awhile.
The other thing that popped into my mind was the following unpublished poem by a dear friend from Zimbabwe that I share with permission but ask it not be re posted at this time for various reasons.
I refuse your Jesus, tainted one,
By racism's touch, his purity undone.
Contaminated by bigotry's stain,
Weaponized for power, for personal gain.
Molested by colonialism's hand,
He's wielded now to oppress the land.
A symbol twisted, perverted, defiled,
To justify injustice, to silence the reviled.
I refuse your Jesus, once divine,
Now shackled by the sins of mankind.
No longer a beacon of hope and light,
But a tool of oppression, a force of blight.
In his name, the marginalized suffer still,
While the privileged wield their power at will.
I turn away from this corrupted guise,
And seek a truer love that never lies.
I refuse your Jesus, tainted and marred,
In search of a saviour who's never barred.
A pure Jesus who represents us all,
Unshackled by bias, standing tall.
A merciful Jesus, who liberates all,
Breaking down barriers, tearing down walls.
Granting the same privilege to every soul,
In his embrace, all find their role.
No longer a tool for the oppressor's hand,
But a beacon of justice, across the land.
In his uncorrupted form, we find release,
A love that transcends, a boundless peace.
So I turn away from the tainted guise,
And seek a truer love that never lies.
In a pure Jesus, we find our call,
To stand for justice, for one and all.
Easter 2024
Virayayi Pugeni